Comments on: A tale of two nations http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2009/06/tale-of-two-nations/ commentary on all things Taiwanese -- Taipei, Taiwan Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:14:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Jens http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2009/06/tale-of-two-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-85016 Jens Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:45:09 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/?p=4372#comment-85016 Well, in Germany you get arrested for constantly talking to signature collectors ... Not much better ... Well, in Germany you get arrested for constantly talking to signature collectors … Not much better …

]]> By: YuLin http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2009/06/tale-of-two-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-85015 YuLin Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:06:09 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/?p=4372#comment-85015 Hi David, please excuse me for stating my second thoughts on this comparison. Now I doubt that the Wide Lily Movement makes a genuine counterpart for the 6-4 Movement. While a students' demand for political reform, the former also amounts to a protest of the long oppressed Taiwanese against the ruling minority of the Chinese refugees, aka. "Wai-sheng-ren"/"outsiders". With this racial factor taken into account, it seems more appropriate to compare the former with another student movement against a corrupt regime that is at the same time foreign. In this case, again, President Lee was the one to make difference. The Wide Lily Movement was blessed with unprecedented circumstances that the KMT was headed by a president of Taiwanese ethnicity, and more crucially, of faith in God (for being Taiwanese alone is never enough for combating the Chinese, A-Bian for example). Had the KMT had a "Wai-sheng-ren" as the president, it is very likely that the Wide Lily Movement would have ended up like the protesting students in the 228 incident. Hi David, please excuse me for stating my second thoughts on this comparison. Now I doubt that the Wide Lily Movement makes a genuine counterpart for the 6-4 Movement. While a students’ demand for political reform, the former also amounts to a protest of the long oppressed Taiwanese against the ruling minority of the Chinese refugees, aka. “Wai-sheng-ren”/”outsiders”. With this racial factor taken into account, it seems more appropriate to compare the former with another student movement against a corrupt regime that is at the same time foreign. In this case, again, President Lee was the one to make difference. The Wide Lily Movement was blessed with unprecedented circumstances that the KMT was headed by a president of Taiwanese ethnicity, and more crucially, of faith in God (for being Taiwanese alone is never enough for combating the Chinese, A-Bian for example). Had the KMT had a “Wai-sheng-ren” as the president, it is very likely that the Wide Lily Movement would have ended up like the protesting students in the 228 incident.

]]> By: YuLin http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2009/06/tale-of-two-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-85014 YuLin Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:16:44 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/?p=4372#comment-85014 This is an interesting comparison, and with the political background and the key participants in the two student movements being so similar, I think President Lee is the one who made all the difference in Taiwan. Sadly, that Taiwan as a democracy is totally gone now. Nowadays, students get sent to a police station for just shouting to Ma. There won't be any "a tale of two nations" like this in the future, since Taiwan is returning so fast to the pre-Lee era, and its democracy is really becoming a history. I am also afraid that Taiwan will no longer stand as a nation soon. This is an interesting comparison, and with the political background and the key participants in the two student movements being so similar, I think President Lee is the one who made all the difference in Taiwan. Sadly, that Taiwan as a democracy is totally gone now. Nowadays, students get sent to a police station for just shouting to Ma. There won’t be any “a tale of two nations” like this in the future, since Taiwan is returning so fast to the pre-Lee era, and its democracy is really becoming a history. I am also afraid that Taiwan will no longer stand as a nation soon.

]]> By: David Reid http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2009/06/tale-of-two-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-85012 David Reid Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:25:02 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/?p=4372#comment-85012 v, I think your analysis is quite fair. LTH was fairly certain of being re-elected President in 1990 anyway. The student movement can be seen more as a helping hand rather than a decisive factor. v, I think your analysis is quite fair. LTH was fairly certain of being re-elected President in 1990 anyway. The student movement can be seen more as a helping hand rather than a decisive factor.

]]> By: v http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2009/06/tale-of-two-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-85010 v Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:12:42 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/?p=4372#comment-85010 i was also at the protests. i'll have to read wright's book, but just from what you write here, i'm skeptical that the students had that much of an impact of lee deng-hui. they must have been preaching to the choir. maybe lee could have used the student movement as a justification for what he already wanted to do. i was also at the protests. i’ll have to read wright’s book, but just from what you write here, i’m skeptical that the students had that much of an impact of lee deng-hui. they must have been preaching to the choir. maybe lee could have used the student movement as a justification for what he already wanted to do.

]]> By: jenna http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2009/06/tale-of-two-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-84993 jenna Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:12:37 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/?p=4372#comment-84993 Very informative and thoughtful post, thank you! By the way, there is also a memorial vigil/protest at Freedom Square today. They were setting up for it last night and some people had already begun arriving. I don't know if they're still there due to the rain. Very informative and thoughtful post, thank you!

By the way, there is also a memorial vigil/protest at Freedom Square today. They were setting up for it last night and some people had already begun arriving. I don’t know if they’re still there due to the rain.

]]> By: David Reid http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2009/06/tale-of-two-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-84992 David Reid Wed, 03 Jun 2009 15:18:55 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/?p=4372#comment-84992 Poagao, I was waiting for your response. I did write that the situation in Taiwan was less repressive. However, many aspects of the authoritarian system remained in place and the specter of past violence still lurked in people's psyche. For much of April and May 1989 the students in Beijing probably didn't feel threatened either. The similarities and differences are explained in more detail in Wright's book. I know you witnessed the events in Taipei and you will have many insights as a result of that. Maybe you should write about it in your forthcoming book. I would certainly be interested to read it. My post was not intended to be a detailed analysis, just to highlight the two very different results. Poagao, I was waiting for your response. I did write that the situation in Taiwan was less repressive. However, many aspects of the authoritarian system remained in place and the specter of past violence still lurked in people’s psyche. For much of April and May 1989 the students in Beijing probably didn’t feel threatened either. The similarities and differences are explained in more detail in Wright’s book.

I know you witnessed the events in Taipei and you will have many insights as a result of that. Maybe you should write about it in your forthcoming book. I would certainly be interested to read it.

My post was not intended to be a detailed analysis, just to highlight the two very different results.

]]> By: Poagao http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2009/06/tale-of-two-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-84991 Poagao Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:47:18 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/?p=4372#comment-84991 There was far more freedom in Taiwan than in China 20 years ago. I think you overestimate the control the government had over people and especially students at that point. I don't know if Wright was here for the Wild Lily Protests, but I never felt threatened by the authorities for the duration of the protest, and none of my fellow students seemed to either. Comparing the situation to that in China seems a bit far-fetched. You also might include the fact that the PRC government largely ignored the students at Tiananmen until the workers started getting involved. There was far more freedom in Taiwan than in China 20 years ago. I think you overestimate the control the government had over people and especially students at that point. I don’t know if Wright was here for the Wild Lily Protests, but I never felt threatened by the authorities for the duration of the protest, and none of my fellow students seemed to either. Comparing the situation to that in China seems a bit far-fetched.

You also might include the fact that the PRC government largely ignored the students at Tiananmen until the workers started getting involved.

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