Comments on: The difficulties of studying Chinese in Taiwan http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/ commentary on all things Taiwanese — Taiwan Tue, 13 Dec 2011 17:43:50 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: anon http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-84393 anon Sun, 28 Sep 2008 08:40:13 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/#comment-84393 it seems that's all going to change in 2009 http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2008/09/18/2003423528 it seems that’s all going to change in 2009
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2008/09/18/2003423528

]]> By: nostalgiphile http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-83983 nostalgiphile Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:51:33 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/#comment-83983 Perhaps standards have declined, but when I first studied Mandarin in Taiwan 8 months is about right-- both I and most of my (fairly diligent) intensive course classmates were able to gain proficiency in speaking and basic reading ability in that time. And believe it or not, some of them were white people. Mandarin instruction used to be very good in Taiwan, but Taipei simply is not a good place to practice it. There are just too many "fake foreign devils" (假洋鬼子, as Lu Xun called them) in that city. Prince Roy again takes the side of China on this (and most other) issue, mistaking Taiwan for that other -- yes, correct, much bigger! -- other country, China. So, what gets left out again is that Zhuyin fuhao / bopomofo is <b>universally used</b> in Taiwan society, where foreign students are expected to live and adapt while they learn the language. Zhuyin is used on the cellphone you will buy and use here, it's used on the computer you will buy and use here, it's used in most of the educational texts for students that you can use to pick up vocabulary while learning to read (as I did), and it's even used in casual conversations in the internet chatrooms you might want to visit to practice your Chinese in. Failure to learn it is, judging from the experience of my friends who haven't yet, fairly crippling if you plan to stay in Taiwan any length of time. Face it, this isn't China (yet) and there's no reason why learning it is going to Perhaps standards have declined, but when I first studied Mandarin in Taiwan 8 months is about right– both I and most of my (fairly diligent) intensive course classmates were able to gain proficiency in speaking and basic reading ability in that time. And believe it or not, some of them were white people. Mandarin instruction used to be very good in Taiwan, but Taipei simply is not a good place to practice it. There are just too many “fake foreign devils” (假洋鬼子, as Lu Xun called them) in that city.

Prince Roy again takes the side of China on this (and most other) issue, mistaking Taiwan for that other — yes, correct, much bigger! — other country, China. So, what gets left out again is that Zhuyin fuhao / bopomofo is universally used in Taiwan society, where foreign students are expected to live and adapt while they learn the language. Zhuyin is used on the cellphone you will buy and use here, it’s used on the computer you will buy and use here, it’s used in most of the educational texts for students that you can use to pick up vocabulary while learning to read (as I did), and it’s even used in casual conversations in the internet chatrooms you might want to visit to practice your Chinese in.

Failure to learn it is, judging from the experience of my friends who haven’t yet, fairly crippling if you plan to stay in Taiwan any length of time. Face it, this isn’t China (yet) and there’s no reason why learning it is going to

]]> By: James http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-76433 James Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:29:10 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/#comment-76433 As an online Mandarin Chinese instructor I have to face this issue almost everyday in email I receive from our listeners. It almost makes me laugh with anger. Most people in the west really don’t have any idea what the pros or cons of studying Mandarin Chinese on either side of the lake. The Zhuyifuhao vs. Pinyin topic boils down to which system is the widest accepted tool for learning the same language. This is not the same as teaching “color” vs. “colour.” Making something like MPS2 different just to make a point that you are different doesn’t hold water well. The muscles in charge have a hard time facing this debate. It’s well known that many of those who have control in this debate are just holding this 刀槍不如 tone for personal gain. Taiwan can’t compete with the fact that schools of Mandarin learning outside of Taiwan only use Pinyin. No point in putting up a fight. Now, the next issue may now come to the use of Simplified vs. Traditional Chinese characters. I went to college in Beijing and had characters poured down my throat. While studying in a history class, my classmate and I had to learn traditional characters. This is where we discovered a major fault with the Simplified Chinese form. To make things “simple” many simplified characters are used in place of characters that have the same sound….but not the same meaning! This sucks if you have to learn classic poems and other “higher” literature. This “simplifying” has taken away the art in many forms of classical Chinese writings. Which character set is harder to learn is another topic for discussion and another bowl of 豆漿。 So both sides are adding to the language confusion. As an online Mandarin Chinese instructor I have to face this issue almost everyday in email I receive from our listeners. It almost makes me laugh with anger. Most people in the west really don’t have any idea what the pros or cons of studying Mandarin Chinese on either side of the lake. The Zhuyifuhao vs. Pinyin topic boils down to which system is the widest accepted tool for learning the same language. This is not the same as teaching “color” vs. “colour.” Making something like MPS2 different just to make a point that you are different doesn’t hold water well.

The muscles in charge have a hard time facing this debate. It’s well known that many of those who have control in this debate are just holding this 刀槍不如 tone for personal gain. Taiwan can’t compete with the fact that schools of Mandarin learning outside of Taiwan only use Pinyin. No point in putting up a fight.

Now, the next issue may now come to the use of Simplified vs. Traditional Chinese characters. I went to college in Beijing and had characters poured down my throat. While studying in a history class, my classmate and I had to learn traditional characters. This is where we discovered a major fault with the Simplified Chinese form. To make things “simple” many simplified characters are used in place of characters that have the same sound….but not the same meaning! This sucks if you have to learn classic poems and other “higher” literature. This “simplifying” has taken away the art in many forms of classical Chinese writings. Which character set is harder to learn is another topic for discussion and another bowl of 豆漿。

So both sides are adding to the language confusion.

]]> By: marc http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-6116 marc Tue, 06 Feb 2007 09:27:42 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/#comment-6116 <i>Maybe the people in charge at the Ministry of Education see foreigners coming here to study more as a tedious problem to be dealt with, rather than as a potential opportunity. Seems they remain more focused on the job opportunities that foreigners on student visas may be taking away from Taiwanese English teachers. Penny-wise and pound-foolish.</i> How true this statement is. It is just sad to see Taiwan continually marginalizing itself time after time (after time after time.....) BTW: I wrote an article to the TaipeiTimes back in 2005 in regards to Mandarin study, if interested: http://tinyurl.com/2mganv This is a golden opportunity for Taiwan to show the world who they are and to contribute something meaningful to humanity, but they just don't see it. Selfishness and narrow-minded thinking once again dominates Taiwan administration. The visa issue is by far the biggest problem. Perhaps what they should do is not allow Taiwanese to have dual citizenship passports anymore. This way the government can save millions of dollar on the cheapskate Taiwanese that live in the USA (and elsewhere), but come back to Taiwan for expensive medical treatment. At least the foreigners that are here struggling to study contribute by putting all their money back into the local economy. (including expensive visa runs every 30 days). Taiwan has to stop looking at the small picture. Maybe the people in charge at the Ministry of Education see foreigners coming here to study more as a tedious problem to be dealt with, rather than as a potential opportunity. Seems they remain more focused on the job opportunities that foreigners on student visas may be taking away from Taiwanese English teachers. Penny-wise and pound-foolish.

How true this statement is. It is just sad to see Taiwan continually marginalizing itself time after time (after time after time…..)

BTW: I wrote an article to the TaipeiTimes back in 2005 in regards to Mandarin study, if interested: http://tinyurl.com/2mganv

This is a golden opportunity for Taiwan to show the world who they are and to contribute something meaningful to humanity, but they just don’t see it. Selfishness and narrow-minded thinking once again dominates Taiwan administration.

The visa issue is by far the biggest problem.

Perhaps what they should do is not allow Taiwanese to have dual citizenship passports anymore. This way the government can save millions of dollar on the cheapskate Taiwanese that live in the USA (and elsewhere), but come back to Taiwan for expensive medical treatment. At least the foreigners that are here struggling to study contribute by putting all their money back into the local economy. (including expensive visa runs every 30 days). Taiwan has to stop looking at the small picture.

]]> By: Scott C http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-5017 Scott C Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:28:43 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/#comment-5017 China is always going to get the lion's share of any advantages presented by the growing demand for learning Chinese, but it's a shame to see Taiwan competing as dismally as it is. Seems to me that the main problem is an obvious lack of high-level coordination between government agencies, as well as pig-headed short-sightedness on the part of the people in decision-making positions. Maybe the people in charge at the Ministry of Education see foreigners coming here to study more as a tedious problem to be dealt with, rather than as a potential opportunity. Seems they remain more focused on the job opportunities that foreigners on student visas may be taking away from Taiwanese English teachers. Penny-wise and pound-foolish. Maybe the people in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs are loathe to make it any easier for foreigners to be able to feel secure about staying long-term. I think the article mentioned that the PRC grants year-long multiple-entry visas for students. Why would it be so hard for Taiwan to follow suit? The MOE should set up a task force to research the policies that are proving so sucessful in the PRC, and begin phasing in similar policies here. The PRC bureacracy often appears so backward. But in certain government ministries, they apparently do have people who know what they are doing. If the MOE doesn't get its act together soon, then the best Taiwan-educated Mandarin teachers here may begin leaving to take good jobs in the West, or even in the PRC. China is always going to get the lion’s share of any advantages presented by the growing demand for learning Chinese, but it’s a shame to see Taiwan competing as dismally as it is.

Seems to me that the main problem is an obvious lack of high-level coordination between government agencies, as well as pig-headed short-sightedness on the part of the people in decision-making positions.

Maybe the people in charge at the Ministry of Education see foreigners coming here to study more as a tedious problem to be dealt with, rather than as a potential opportunity. Seems they remain more focused on the job opportunities that foreigners on student visas may be taking away from Taiwanese English teachers. Penny-wise and pound-foolish.

Maybe the people in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs are loathe to make it any easier for foreigners to be able to feel secure about staying long-term.

I think the article mentioned that the PRC grants year-long multiple-entry visas for students. Why would it be so hard for Taiwan to follow suit?

The MOE should set up a task force to research the policies that are proving so sucessful in the PRC, and begin phasing in similar policies here.

The PRC bureacracy often appears so backward. But in certain government ministries, they apparently do have people who know what they are doing.

If the MOE doesn’t get its act together soon, then the best Taiwan-educated Mandarin teachers here may begin leaving to take good jobs in the West, or even in the PRC.

]]> By: Prince Roy’s Realm » Blog Archive » Why Can’t Johnny 捲舌? http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-5015 Prince Roy’s Realm » Blog Archive » Why Can’t Johnny 捲舌? Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:05:41 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/#comment-5015 [...] Both David on Formosa and Doubting to shuo offer recent posts about one of the Big Four of the never-ending Chinese controversies I mention in this entry–namely, Taiwan vs. the Mainland for Chinese language study. An interesting aside to that debate is the newest phenomenon sweeping the Chinese-as-second-language field in the US: K-12 Mandarin immersion programs. I find these gratingly offensive on several levels. [...] [...] Both David on Formosa and Doubting to shuo offer recent posts about one of the Big Four of the never-ending Chinese controversies I mention in this entry–namely, Taiwan vs. the Mainland for Chinese language study. An interesting aside to that debate is the newest phenomenon sweeping the Chinese-as-second-language field in the US: K-12 Mandarin immersion programs. I find these gratingly offensive on several levels. [...]

]]> By: Mark http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-5011 Mark Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:31:11 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/#comment-5011 After some experience at Shida, Taiwan's largest center for teaching Chinese as a second language, I no longer have such lofty expectations. You know that series of books for foreigners that focus on culture and history? My first two books use Yale romanization, and the next several use MPS2. Naturally, some classes use standard pinyin, too, and other teachers shun everything except for zhuyin. Keep in mind that the vast majority of language students have a different teacher each semester, and also change text books frequently, too. After some experience at Shida, Taiwan’s largest center for teaching Chinese as a second language, I no longer have such lofty expectations. You know that series of books for foreigners that focus on culture and history? My first two books use Yale romanization, and the next several use MPS2. Naturally, some classes use standard pinyin, too, and other teachers shun everything except for zhuyin. Keep in mind that the vast majority of language students have a different teacher each semester, and also change text books frequently, too.

]]> By: David Reid http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-4986 David Reid Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:42:16 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/#comment-4986 When I mentioned pinyin systems I was referring more to what is used in the classroom rather than the mess on Taiwan's street signs. One would expect that teachers of Chinese language would use whatever system correctly and consistently. When I mentioned pinyin systems I was referring more to what is used in the classroom rather than the mess on Taiwan’s street signs. One would expect that teachers of Chinese language would use whatever system correctly and consistently.

]]> By: Mark http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-4973 Mark Sun, 28 Jan 2007 16:56:38 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/#comment-4973 I second Prince Roy's comments on romanization systems. I've seen 中 romanized as "zhong", "zong", "jong", "jhong", "chong", and "jhorg". While we could learn to adjust to Wade Guiles, if it were done correctly, we can't adapt to <i>no system</i>. It was impossible for me to figure out some characters on signs in Guishan last year, and that was after already knowing 1500+ characters. Using traditional characters, though, isn't really a problem at all. I'm pretty sure I could make the switch quickly if I moved. All in all, I liked the article until the last few paragraphs, at which point it stumbled a bit. Simplified characters are <i>much</i> easier to remember, at least in my experience, and Taiwan's literacy rate is no where near 98%. Franc, you might be interested to know there already <i>is</i> a traditional character version of the HSK, and it's offered in the US. I know someone who took a traditional version test in New York. I second Prince Roy’s comments on romanization systems. I’ve seen 中 romanized as “zhong”, “zong”, “jong”, “jhong”, “chong”, and “jhorg”. While we could learn to adjust to Wade Guiles, if it were done correctly, we can’t adapt to no system. It was impossible for me to figure out some characters on signs in Guishan last year, and that was after already knowing 1500+ characters. Using traditional characters, though, isn’t really a problem at all. I’m pretty sure I could make the switch quickly if I moved.

All in all, I liked the article until the last few paragraphs, at which point it stumbled a bit. Simplified characters are much easier to remember, at least in my experience, and Taiwan’s literacy rate is no where near 98%.

Franc, you might be interested to know there already is a traditional character version of the HSK, and it’s offered in the US. I know someone who took a traditional version test in New York.

]]> By: David Reid http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-4911 David Reid Sun, 28 Jan 2007 14:22:25 +0000 http://blog.taiwan-guide.org/2007/01/the-difficulties-of-studying-chinese-in-taiwan/#comment-4911 PR, thanks for your comments. You make some good points. Taiwan has to stop continually reinventing the wheel with ever-changing pinyin systems and Chinese proficiency tests. Perhaps Diana Freundl studied Chinese in a previous life :) PR, thanks for your comments. You make some good points. Taiwan has to stop continually reinventing the wheel with ever-changing pinyin systems and Chinese proficiency tests.

Perhaps Diana Freundl studied Chinese in a previous life :)

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